Post by M.J. on Jan 25, 2006 12:04:15 GMT 1
thanks to cnn
Cannibalism Trial Under Way in Germany
Aired December 8, 2003 - 17:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: A disturbing tale. Germans hear a first-hand account from the cannibal next door, a 42-year- old computer expert who openly admits he killed a man from Berlin and then ate him. Defense attorneys say he's innocent of murder because his victim volunteered.
Hello and welcome to INSIGHT. I'm Rosemary Church, in for Jonathan Mann.
Cannibalism is one of human-kinds final taboos. But as the number of international journalists covering the trial in Germany demonstrates, there are many people who are captivated by it. It's certainly a very unusual and compelling story.
Computer expert Armin Meiwes placed an ad on an Internet chatroom called the Cannibal Caf‚, looking for a volunteer to kill. He found a willing partner, killed him, chopped him up and ate him. He says it's not murder, though, because his victim wanted to die.
On INSIGHT today, the cannibal's story.
We begin our coverage with CNN's Matthew Chance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From a distance, Rothenberg seems picture perfect, but these rooftops have hidden a grisly secret.
In the sunlight, the house where Armin Meiwes lived out his cannibal fantasies. Sealed as evidence now, behind these walls a man was slaughtered and eaten like an animal. The details have disgusted and frightened many, like Manfred Schtuck (ph), friend and neighbor for 30 years.
"He seemed the most normal guy you could know," he told me. "I dread to think what was going on inside his head," he says.
Armin Meiwes appeared in court looking relaxed and confident. He admits he is a cannibal and has chilled the German public with accounts of how he butchered and consumed his victim. But the man he ate, Bernd- Juergen Brandes, appears to have had cannibal fantasies too, asking to be killed and eaten. A videotape of the two men used in evidence reportedly shows them both eating the severed genitals of Brandes cooked in garlic in the hours before he died.
Crime experts say the apparent joint nature of the fantasy makes this a grotesque and truly unique case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The very special situation is made up by the Internet system and technique. You can find one another worldwide with such special traits which correspondent with one another, one who is the more sadistic cannibal, and the other who is a more masochistic cannibal. The one who wants to kill and the one who wants to be killed.
CHANCE: It is a crossing of paths many here wish had never been made in their town.
(on camera): This hideous crime has, of course, shocked the people of Rothenburg and the whole of Germany, but it also raises important and difficult moral questions as well. Cannibalism for instance isn't a crime here, but few doubt it should be punished. And perhaps more importantly, the issue of whether the consent of the victim is enough for a killing not to be murder.
(voice-over): And these are not just matters for the courts. As people here contemplate this appalling case, many ask how such an unspeakable crime was committed in their midst.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Well, this crime, this trial, rather, taking a grisly turn once more with a 2-hour home video that was made by Meiwes, showing how he killed, prepared and butchered his victim and eventually ate him. It also, according to defense lawyers, carries evidence that this was not murder, but that his victim, Bernd-Juergen Brandes, was actually asking to be killed and slaughtered and eaten like an animal and that their client, Mr. Meiwes, actually acted on his behalf, acted to his will -- Rosemary.
CHURCH: Now, Matthew, you mention that gruesome home video. I understand journalists were denied access to the court today as they viewed it. How much of that tape would they have seen?
CHANCE: Well, according to the defense lawyers that we've spoken to here, the other people inside the courtroom, this was just the video that was shot, of course, by the alleged killer, or the actual killer, 2-hours long, showing a number of scenes of how he mutilated the body, butchered it, prepared it for cooking, et cetera.
It wasn't seen by the public. It has been kept from public view and it was just viewed by the select members inside the court, the three judges, the two other lay figures that will decide the outcome of this trial, as well as a number of police officials together with the defense and prosecution attorneys.
CHURCH: And, Matthew, you've been covering this trial from the very start. What's your assessment of it? What's been some of your observations?
CHANCE: Well, clearly this is a case that is truly gruesome. It's one that's shocked not just the town of Rothenburg but the whole of Germany and indeed the whole of the world.
It seems the details of this case (AUDIO GAP) in court today. Meiwes, who is the man accused of murder, the self-confessed cannibal, was explaining what motivated him to carryout this kind of crime. He said he never setout to kill anyone. He didn't want to cause any pain. And at the moment when he actually had to kill his victim, he said it was the worst moment in his life, but such were the strength of his passions, his desires, to actually eat human flesh, to feel that he had brought another individual inside his body, as he termed it, in this way, was so strong that he did go through with it and he did carryout that killing.
He confesses to that. He did butcher the body. He confesses to that. And he confesses to inviting other people of similar minds, who he says he met on the Internet, ran to his house in the remote German town of Rothenburg, to join him in the meal of this human flesh which he kept in his freezer for several months, until he was discovered by police.
CHURCH: You mentioned the public reaction. I want to look at that for a moment, just at the saturation coverage across Germany and how people are responding to that, and the possibility that if the defense win their case, he could very well be back on the streets in a matter of years.
CHANCE: Well, certainly this case has outraged Germans and it's focused light on their legal system, which like many other countries does not have a special allowance for cannibalism. The consumption of human flesh is not expressly outlawed under German law, but obviously there are virtually no -- very few people doubt here that some kind of punishment for cannibalism is necessary. So it has raised a lot of social and moral questions in this country about how this case should be prosecuted.
Then it comes to the actual arguments of the prosecution and the defense. The prosecution are arguing very strongly that this was murder, that Meiwes lured vulnerable characters to his remote home, preyed upon them by giving them drugs, preyed on their suicidal tendencies, perhaps, for his own pleasure, because he wanted to eat them.
The defense is arguing again strongly as well that this wasn't murder because Meiwes only killed people -- killed this one individual, because he had requested him to do so. He said he was carrying out a request of this individual, who as I mentioned, had cannibalistic fantasies himself. And so they're trying to get a much lighter charge than murder passed down to Meiwes, one of assisted killing, which carries a maximum sentence of 5 years.
So this whole case raises a lot of legal and moral questions for this country.
CHURCH: And we're certainly going to look at those legal ramifications after the break, but first I do want to look at how Meiwes came to the attention of the law.
CHANCE: Well, Meiwes kept this secret very close to him for the best part of a year, before he was discovered by the authorities. It seems that his own bragging, his own salesmanship, if you will, of what he had in his freezer, eventually proved his undoing.
He was sending photographs across the Internet to people who had described themselves as cannibals, who had expressed an interest through the various dark Internet chatrooms that you can find on the Worldwide Web of people who are interested in cannibalism.
He sent a photograph to one individual of what he had done to this man, discussed it with a number of others. Eventually, inevitably perhaps, the police were notified. They investigated and found this very gruesome scene in Rothenburg.
CHURCH: Matthew Chance, in Rothenburg, Germany, we're going to get you to stand by. We're going to take a quick break and then go back to Matthew.
And when we come back, we'll take a closer look at the legal problems posed by this case.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHURCH: The German courts have not handled many cases involving cannibals. In 1995, a German man on trial for murder and robbery claimed to have eaten the innards of his victim, but it was never proven.
Welcome back to INSIGHT.
This is Germany's first cannibalism trial since 1925. Back then, Fritz Harmon (ph) was convicted of killing and eating at least 26 young men. Harmon (ph) was convicted and executed.
But there is no death penalty in modern Germany, and as we have heard, there is not even a law against eating human flesh.
Once again, we're joined by CNN's Matthew Chance.
Well, Matthew, before the break we were looking at the prosecution and the defense strategy. We want to look more specifically now at the central issue, which seems to be just how consensual was this killing. So what's the proof that consent was given? And just how mentally competent was the victim?
CHANCE: Well, this is what's going to be decided in this court. It's one of the hinge issues of the prosecution and of the defense as well.
The defense presented what they say is very strong video evidence that a team of judges who are presiding over this trial, which they say demonstrates this was a consensual act and therefore should receive a lighter conviction for assisted killing.
Basically, what they have is an on-camera approval, if you will, by the victim, Bernd-Juergen Brandes, for this killing to take place. He said on the tape, apparently, that he wanted to be killed, he wanted to be slaughtered, and he wanted to be eaten.
Now, the defense is arguing that for that reason, then, this should not be a murder charge, this should be an assisted killing charge.
What the prosecution are saying is because this wasn't like euthanasia, it wasn't somebody killing another individual out of sympathy, for instance, because of a terminal illness or some other reason. It was essentially to satisfy his own pleasure, his own sexual pleasure, apparently, according to prosecutors. They're pushing very hard for a conviction for murder. They say this was a killing of malicious intent.
What many legal experts in Germany here are saying, though, is that perhaps some kind of area between the two, a manslaughter charge, a second degree murder charge, call it what you will, will perhaps be the end result after 14 days of court hearings, expected to end sometime in the middle of January -- Rosemary.
CHURCH: Now, Matthew, this has been described as one of the most extraordinary trials in German criminal history. Is there any precedent for this, any guidance, that the courts could be guided by in actual fact? Legal guidance, of sorts?
CHANCE: It is a truly remarkable and extremely unique crime. You mentioned those previous incidents of cannibalism that we've seen here in Germany and indeed there have been many more around the world, in Russia, elsewhere in Europe as well. But this one is very different for one good reason, is that in all these other cases, the victims were essentially murdered against their will, obviously, and then consumed by the killer.
This is very different, because it seems that both parties came together, a sort of sadistic cannibal came together with a masochistic cannibal, somebody who wanted to be killed by somebody who wanted to kill and eat and somebody who wanted to be eaten. They came together through this technology of the Internet. They managed to find each other and live out their cannibalistic fantasies -- Rosemary.
CHURCH: All right. Matthew Chance, talking to us there from Rothenburg, in Germany. Thanks for that.
And we'll take a closer look at the motivation of both men, the victim and his killer, when INSIGHT returns.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHURCH: Welcome back.
Cannibalism is not a new thing. It was widespread in prehistoric societies and is still believed to be practiced in remote parts of Papua New Guinea.
But it's extremely rare in modern society. But for those who are curious, the Internet is invaluable. It provides a wealth of resources, including step-by-step guides to butchering the human carcass and even recipes for consuming it.
What exactly motivates a person to kill and eat another human? And why would anyone agree to become their prey?
To investigate these issues, we turn to Dr. Clancy McKenzie, the chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at Capital University in Philadelphia. He's an expert on delayed post-traumatic stress disorders from infancy.
Dr. McKenzie, thanks for being with us here on INSIGHT.
I do want to go first to what exactly drives a person to cannibalism, just generally, rather than looking at specific cases.
DR. CLANCY MCKENZIE, CAPITAL UNIVERSITY: This has a very early origin. It's described in the psychoanalytic literature by Bert Leland (ph), the infant triad of the desire to devour the mother, to be eaten and to sleep. That's the triad. And the baby first sucks for six months on the breast, then it starts to bite, and it has an intense desire at that time to devour the mother, which of course everyone forgets that they had.
So if there is a trauma then and a similar trauma 10, 20, 30 years later, it can awaken that same desire, or what I would consider a very narrow slice of schizophrenia.
CHURCH: You're suggesting that we all have had that fantasy of devouring our mothers?
MCKENZIE: You know, when I was taking the child psychoanalytic training, they say if you say to a small child, "I'm going to gobble you up," they might react with horror. Well, I had forgotten all about that, and 20 years later, when I had my first child, when she was about 2 years old, I said that and she acted with absolute horror, because that thought touched her own. She believed I was literally going to do that.
CHURCH: All right. I want to go specifically now to Armin Meiwes's case. We do know from reading the background on him that he has said himself that he was having fantasies about killing and eating human flesh at the age of 8. Now what sort of traumas possibly occurred in his life -- you do know the specifics to his case -- that could have caused his cannibalism?
MCKENZIE: Well, it was awakened at age 8. The actual desire would have been from the separation trauma much earlier, somewhere in the first two years of life. And when he was 8 years old, the father and brothers left, left him with the mother, and at that time he wished he'd had a little brother whom he could devour.
But then it was when the mother died when he was 37 years old that he said the desire for cannibalism was very intense, which is always the case in this delayed post-traumatic stress disorder. A trauma in the present which is sufficiently intense and similar to a trauma in the past awakens that earlier trauma and it's exactly -- you know, it must have been a trauma in the first couple of years of life, when he actually had -- that's when the child has the desire to devour the mother.
CHURCH: But many people experience early childhood traumas like this, and they don't -- they're not driven to cannibalism. So what would trigger it in him that doesn't possibly trigger it in other people that experience the same thing?
MCKENZIE: That's true. There are many traumas that occur, but if the trauma occurs when that's foremost on the mind, the person returns to the most intense desire, the most intense wish that was on the mind at that earlier time.
CHURCH: Now interestingly, we know too from reading material of Meiwes, that he says that this moment of killing was actually the worst moment of his life, that it didn't live up to his fantasy, and yet he was still ready to do it again. What do you read into that?
MCKENZIE: I think it probably was the worst moment in his life, but it was the desire to devour, which is the infant desire. The infant wants to devour the mother. It sucks on her breast for a while but then it literally has the desire to devour the mother, and when it's awakened it seems so strange because everybody has forgotten about this.
CHURCH: And uncontrollable -- presumably.
I just want to very quickly go to -- he's been determined as sane. So is that your assessment too? That even if somebody kills and eats a human being, that they are still sane?
MCKENZIE: To me, it's very insane. It's an earlier reality. You know, when we see an earlier reality, like paranoia -- I mean, just an example, I mean, a person shifts to earlier realities when they start to walk at age 12 months, the whole world, which to them is the mother, watches and follows them everywhere they go. Now when they start to reexperience that earlier reality in the present day and age, we call it paranoia, but it's no unreality, it's earlier reality, for all of these things.
CHURCH: All right, Dr. Clancy McKenzie, thanks for talking with us. Appreciate it.
MCKENZIE: You're very welcome. Thank you.
CHURCH: And that's it for this edition of INSIGHT. I'm Rosemary Church. Thanks for joining us.
END
Cannibalism Trial Under Way in Germany
Aired December 8, 2003 - 17:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: A disturbing tale. Germans hear a first-hand account from the cannibal next door, a 42-year- old computer expert who openly admits he killed a man from Berlin and then ate him. Defense attorneys say he's innocent of murder because his victim volunteered.
Hello and welcome to INSIGHT. I'm Rosemary Church, in for Jonathan Mann.
Cannibalism is one of human-kinds final taboos. But as the number of international journalists covering the trial in Germany demonstrates, there are many people who are captivated by it. It's certainly a very unusual and compelling story.
Computer expert Armin Meiwes placed an ad on an Internet chatroom called the Cannibal Caf‚, looking for a volunteer to kill. He found a willing partner, killed him, chopped him up and ate him. He says it's not murder, though, because his victim wanted to die.
On INSIGHT today, the cannibal's story.
We begin our coverage with CNN's Matthew Chance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From a distance, Rothenberg seems picture perfect, but these rooftops have hidden a grisly secret.
In the sunlight, the house where Armin Meiwes lived out his cannibal fantasies. Sealed as evidence now, behind these walls a man was slaughtered and eaten like an animal. The details have disgusted and frightened many, like Manfred Schtuck (ph), friend and neighbor for 30 years.
"He seemed the most normal guy you could know," he told me. "I dread to think what was going on inside his head," he says.
Armin Meiwes appeared in court looking relaxed and confident. He admits he is a cannibal and has chilled the German public with accounts of how he butchered and consumed his victim. But the man he ate, Bernd- Juergen Brandes, appears to have had cannibal fantasies too, asking to be killed and eaten. A videotape of the two men used in evidence reportedly shows them both eating the severed genitals of Brandes cooked in garlic in the hours before he died.
Crime experts say the apparent joint nature of the fantasy makes this a grotesque and truly unique case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The very special situation is made up by the Internet system and technique. You can find one another worldwide with such special traits which correspondent with one another, one who is the more sadistic cannibal, and the other who is a more masochistic cannibal. The one who wants to kill and the one who wants to be killed.
CHANCE: It is a crossing of paths many here wish had never been made in their town.
(on camera): This hideous crime has, of course, shocked the people of Rothenburg and the whole of Germany, but it also raises important and difficult moral questions as well. Cannibalism for instance isn't a crime here, but few doubt it should be punished. And perhaps more importantly, the issue of whether the consent of the victim is enough for a killing not to be murder.
(voice-over): And these are not just matters for the courts. As people here contemplate this appalling case, many ask how such an unspeakable crime was committed in their midst.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Well, this crime, this trial, rather, taking a grisly turn once more with a 2-hour home video that was made by Meiwes, showing how he killed, prepared and butchered his victim and eventually ate him. It also, according to defense lawyers, carries evidence that this was not murder, but that his victim, Bernd-Juergen Brandes, was actually asking to be killed and slaughtered and eaten like an animal and that their client, Mr. Meiwes, actually acted on his behalf, acted to his will -- Rosemary.
CHURCH: Now, Matthew, you mention that gruesome home video. I understand journalists were denied access to the court today as they viewed it. How much of that tape would they have seen?
CHANCE: Well, according to the defense lawyers that we've spoken to here, the other people inside the courtroom, this was just the video that was shot, of course, by the alleged killer, or the actual killer, 2-hours long, showing a number of scenes of how he mutilated the body, butchered it, prepared it for cooking, et cetera.
It wasn't seen by the public. It has been kept from public view and it was just viewed by the select members inside the court, the three judges, the two other lay figures that will decide the outcome of this trial, as well as a number of police officials together with the defense and prosecution attorneys.
CHURCH: And, Matthew, you've been covering this trial from the very start. What's your assessment of it? What's been some of your observations?
CHANCE: Well, clearly this is a case that is truly gruesome. It's one that's shocked not just the town of Rothenburg but the whole of Germany and indeed the whole of the world.
It seems the details of this case (AUDIO GAP) in court today. Meiwes, who is the man accused of murder, the self-confessed cannibal, was explaining what motivated him to carryout this kind of crime. He said he never setout to kill anyone. He didn't want to cause any pain. And at the moment when he actually had to kill his victim, he said it was the worst moment in his life, but such were the strength of his passions, his desires, to actually eat human flesh, to feel that he had brought another individual inside his body, as he termed it, in this way, was so strong that he did go through with it and he did carryout that killing.
He confesses to that. He did butcher the body. He confesses to that. And he confesses to inviting other people of similar minds, who he says he met on the Internet, ran to his house in the remote German town of Rothenburg, to join him in the meal of this human flesh which he kept in his freezer for several months, until he was discovered by police.
CHURCH: You mentioned the public reaction. I want to look at that for a moment, just at the saturation coverage across Germany and how people are responding to that, and the possibility that if the defense win their case, he could very well be back on the streets in a matter of years.
CHANCE: Well, certainly this case has outraged Germans and it's focused light on their legal system, which like many other countries does not have a special allowance for cannibalism. The consumption of human flesh is not expressly outlawed under German law, but obviously there are virtually no -- very few people doubt here that some kind of punishment for cannibalism is necessary. So it has raised a lot of social and moral questions in this country about how this case should be prosecuted.
Then it comes to the actual arguments of the prosecution and the defense. The prosecution are arguing very strongly that this was murder, that Meiwes lured vulnerable characters to his remote home, preyed upon them by giving them drugs, preyed on their suicidal tendencies, perhaps, for his own pleasure, because he wanted to eat them.
The defense is arguing again strongly as well that this wasn't murder because Meiwes only killed people -- killed this one individual, because he had requested him to do so. He said he was carrying out a request of this individual, who as I mentioned, had cannibalistic fantasies himself. And so they're trying to get a much lighter charge than murder passed down to Meiwes, one of assisted killing, which carries a maximum sentence of 5 years.
So this whole case raises a lot of legal and moral questions for this country.
CHURCH: And we're certainly going to look at those legal ramifications after the break, but first I do want to look at how Meiwes came to the attention of the law.
CHANCE: Well, Meiwes kept this secret very close to him for the best part of a year, before he was discovered by the authorities. It seems that his own bragging, his own salesmanship, if you will, of what he had in his freezer, eventually proved his undoing.
He was sending photographs across the Internet to people who had described themselves as cannibals, who had expressed an interest through the various dark Internet chatrooms that you can find on the Worldwide Web of people who are interested in cannibalism.
He sent a photograph to one individual of what he had done to this man, discussed it with a number of others. Eventually, inevitably perhaps, the police were notified. They investigated and found this very gruesome scene in Rothenburg.
CHURCH: Matthew Chance, in Rothenburg, Germany, we're going to get you to stand by. We're going to take a quick break and then go back to Matthew.
And when we come back, we'll take a closer look at the legal problems posed by this case.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHURCH: The German courts have not handled many cases involving cannibals. In 1995, a German man on trial for murder and robbery claimed to have eaten the innards of his victim, but it was never proven.
Welcome back to INSIGHT.
This is Germany's first cannibalism trial since 1925. Back then, Fritz Harmon (ph) was convicted of killing and eating at least 26 young men. Harmon (ph) was convicted and executed.
But there is no death penalty in modern Germany, and as we have heard, there is not even a law against eating human flesh.
Once again, we're joined by CNN's Matthew Chance.
Well, Matthew, before the break we were looking at the prosecution and the defense strategy. We want to look more specifically now at the central issue, which seems to be just how consensual was this killing. So what's the proof that consent was given? And just how mentally competent was the victim?
CHANCE: Well, this is what's going to be decided in this court. It's one of the hinge issues of the prosecution and of the defense as well.
The defense presented what they say is very strong video evidence that a team of judges who are presiding over this trial, which they say demonstrates this was a consensual act and therefore should receive a lighter conviction for assisted killing.
Basically, what they have is an on-camera approval, if you will, by the victim, Bernd-Juergen Brandes, for this killing to take place. He said on the tape, apparently, that he wanted to be killed, he wanted to be slaughtered, and he wanted to be eaten.
Now, the defense is arguing that for that reason, then, this should not be a murder charge, this should be an assisted killing charge.
What the prosecution are saying is because this wasn't like euthanasia, it wasn't somebody killing another individual out of sympathy, for instance, because of a terminal illness or some other reason. It was essentially to satisfy his own pleasure, his own sexual pleasure, apparently, according to prosecutors. They're pushing very hard for a conviction for murder. They say this was a killing of malicious intent.
What many legal experts in Germany here are saying, though, is that perhaps some kind of area between the two, a manslaughter charge, a second degree murder charge, call it what you will, will perhaps be the end result after 14 days of court hearings, expected to end sometime in the middle of January -- Rosemary.
CHURCH: Now, Matthew, this has been described as one of the most extraordinary trials in German criminal history. Is there any precedent for this, any guidance, that the courts could be guided by in actual fact? Legal guidance, of sorts?
CHANCE: It is a truly remarkable and extremely unique crime. You mentioned those previous incidents of cannibalism that we've seen here in Germany and indeed there have been many more around the world, in Russia, elsewhere in Europe as well. But this one is very different for one good reason, is that in all these other cases, the victims were essentially murdered against their will, obviously, and then consumed by the killer.
This is very different, because it seems that both parties came together, a sort of sadistic cannibal came together with a masochistic cannibal, somebody who wanted to be killed by somebody who wanted to kill and eat and somebody who wanted to be eaten. They came together through this technology of the Internet. They managed to find each other and live out their cannibalistic fantasies -- Rosemary.
CHURCH: All right. Matthew Chance, talking to us there from Rothenburg, in Germany. Thanks for that.
And we'll take a closer look at the motivation of both men, the victim and his killer, when INSIGHT returns.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHURCH: Welcome back.
Cannibalism is not a new thing. It was widespread in prehistoric societies and is still believed to be practiced in remote parts of Papua New Guinea.
But it's extremely rare in modern society. But for those who are curious, the Internet is invaluable. It provides a wealth of resources, including step-by-step guides to butchering the human carcass and even recipes for consuming it.
What exactly motivates a person to kill and eat another human? And why would anyone agree to become their prey?
To investigate these issues, we turn to Dr. Clancy McKenzie, the chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at Capital University in Philadelphia. He's an expert on delayed post-traumatic stress disorders from infancy.
Dr. McKenzie, thanks for being with us here on INSIGHT.
I do want to go first to what exactly drives a person to cannibalism, just generally, rather than looking at specific cases.
DR. CLANCY MCKENZIE, CAPITAL UNIVERSITY: This has a very early origin. It's described in the psychoanalytic literature by Bert Leland (ph), the infant triad of the desire to devour the mother, to be eaten and to sleep. That's the triad. And the baby first sucks for six months on the breast, then it starts to bite, and it has an intense desire at that time to devour the mother, which of course everyone forgets that they had.
So if there is a trauma then and a similar trauma 10, 20, 30 years later, it can awaken that same desire, or what I would consider a very narrow slice of schizophrenia.
CHURCH: You're suggesting that we all have had that fantasy of devouring our mothers?
MCKENZIE: You know, when I was taking the child psychoanalytic training, they say if you say to a small child, "I'm going to gobble you up," they might react with horror. Well, I had forgotten all about that, and 20 years later, when I had my first child, when she was about 2 years old, I said that and she acted with absolute horror, because that thought touched her own. She believed I was literally going to do that.
CHURCH: All right. I want to go specifically now to Armin Meiwes's case. We do know from reading the background on him that he has said himself that he was having fantasies about killing and eating human flesh at the age of 8. Now what sort of traumas possibly occurred in his life -- you do know the specifics to his case -- that could have caused his cannibalism?
MCKENZIE: Well, it was awakened at age 8. The actual desire would have been from the separation trauma much earlier, somewhere in the first two years of life. And when he was 8 years old, the father and brothers left, left him with the mother, and at that time he wished he'd had a little brother whom he could devour.
But then it was when the mother died when he was 37 years old that he said the desire for cannibalism was very intense, which is always the case in this delayed post-traumatic stress disorder. A trauma in the present which is sufficiently intense and similar to a trauma in the past awakens that earlier trauma and it's exactly -- you know, it must have been a trauma in the first couple of years of life, when he actually had -- that's when the child has the desire to devour the mother.
CHURCH: But many people experience early childhood traumas like this, and they don't -- they're not driven to cannibalism. So what would trigger it in him that doesn't possibly trigger it in other people that experience the same thing?
MCKENZIE: That's true. There are many traumas that occur, but if the trauma occurs when that's foremost on the mind, the person returns to the most intense desire, the most intense wish that was on the mind at that earlier time.
CHURCH: Now interestingly, we know too from reading material of Meiwes, that he says that this moment of killing was actually the worst moment of his life, that it didn't live up to his fantasy, and yet he was still ready to do it again. What do you read into that?
MCKENZIE: I think it probably was the worst moment in his life, but it was the desire to devour, which is the infant desire. The infant wants to devour the mother. It sucks on her breast for a while but then it literally has the desire to devour the mother, and when it's awakened it seems so strange because everybody has forgotten about this.
CHURCH: And uncontrollable -- presumably.
I just want to very quickly go to -- he's been determined as sane. So is that your assessment too? That even if somebody kills and eats a human being, that they are still sane?
MCKENZIE: To me, it's very insane. It's an earlier reality. You know, when we see an earlier reality, like paranoia -- I mean, just an example, I mean, a person shifts to earlier realities when they start to walk at age 12 months, the whole world, which to them is the mother, watches and follows them everywhere they go. Now when they start to reexperience that earlier reality in the present day and age, we call it paranoia, but it's no unreality, it's earlier reality, for all of these things.
CHURCH: All right, Dr. Clancy McKenzie, thanks for talking with us. Appreciate it.
MCKENZIE: You're very welcome. Thank you.
CHURCH: And that's it for this edition of INSIGHT. I'm Rosemary Church. Thanks for joining us.
END